You have expressed your concerns about Buhari’s anti-corruption campaign. In specific terms, what are your grievances?
President Buhari has not told anyone how his anti-corruption war will be
fought. The Independent Corrupt Practices and Other Related Offences
Commission and the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission are
Obasanjo’s vehicles. The last vehicle Gen. Buhari used was the Military
Tribunals, whose consequences we know. For now, the President has said
he will fight corruption but the strategies are not clear yet. So, I do
not know how and why people have already started speaking of (an)
anti-corruption campaign.Personally, I have not expressed concerns beyond the fact that due process is important and must define how we go. I am still convinced that we do not need to hear so much lamentation because the case has already been made.
It is quite sad that the media has deliberately continued to distort
this issue of probe. I do not know where the media got and started
spreading this baseless rumour about our committee, for example,
pleading on behalf of former President Jonathan not to be probed. Since
he left government, I have neither spoken with nor seen ex-President
Jonathan until we met him on Tuesday (penultimate week). In our
discussion with him, he stated clearly that he was not against any probe
but he was pained by what seemed to be like acts of victimisation and
persecution. Jonathan is a former President and if he needs shelter, his
brother former presidents are there and alive. And they are in a better
position to protect the office of a former president with the
architecture of respect and integrity. We must be careful not to play
into the hands of those dictators who, for fear of persecution and
humiliation, have decided to cling on to power at all cost and at the
risk of destroying their people.
Should President Buhari just forget about the stolen monies kept in places and move on?
How can he or anyone forget? But first, where are the places where the monies are? Identifying the location is the first step. The problem is, these monies are stolen and they are not necessarily lost. The challenge is to find those who will help us find them. But finding them is just the beginning of the problem. The real problem is getting the loot back because it — the loot — is sustaining banks, corporations, businesses, industries and careers abroad or in the safe havens and these people (countries) will fight back with everything. You think these banks will just wire this loots to you just like that? They have more lawyers, better lawyers than our entire country. It is almost 20 years now and we still have not seen the Abacha loot. All we hear are stories, since (former President Olusegun) Obasanjo’s time. I am just pointing out difficulties and not discouraging anyone; but there are choices to make. The President has only four years; he has to decide on how he will conserve his energies and which battles to fight, when and how. Our people love drama, but theatre has only a passing use for us now. He does not have a Supreme Military Council of Generals to throw people into jail. He has a National Assembly to deal with and there are still lingering problems with that august body. The President needs help in clearing the debris and banana peels ahead.
Should monies only be recovered and the looters be left unpunished?
I was with the Oputa Panel and I have also studied some part of the justice system as it concerns issues of human rights, reconciliation and justice. We can put all the people we want in jails but what will that do? We can even kill them, but then, what next? The African mind is not so much tuned to punitive justice but we tend to focus more on integrative and restorative justice. The theft has denied us development. So, Buhari can and should learn from ex-President Obasanjo who got back so much of the loots after he came in without any noise. I recall him saying that even pastors helped to bring back loots from repentant parishioners. I believe the President, using the intelligence resources available, should consider surprise as the most vital tool in this fight. My worry has not been about not probing as some of my critics falsely think. I have been saying ‘think, plan and execute.’ If you make so much noise, vital evidence, data and files will be destroyed by collaborators in the civil service or the relevant offices. The President has not named his team in this battle yet and he needs to court whistleblowers and wean them from the looters who may still have control over them. We must all know that loyalties have not changed yet.
Should President Buhari just forget about the stolen monies kept in places and move on?
How can he or anyone forget? But first, where are the places where the monies are? Identifying the location is the first step. The problem is, these monies are stolen and they are not necessarily lost. The challenge is to find those who will help us find them. But finding them is just the beginning of the problem. The real problem is getting the loot back because it — the loot — is sustaining banks, corporations, businesses, industries and careers abroad or in the safe havens and these people (countries) will fight back with everything. You think these banks will just wire this loots to you just like that? They have more lawyers, better lawyers than our entire country. It is almost 20 years now and we still have not seen the Abacha loot. All we hear are stories, since (former President Olusegun) Obasanjo’s time. I am just pointing out difficulties and not discouraging anyone; but there are choices to make. The President has only four years; he has to decide on how he will conserve his energies and which battles to fight, when and how. Our people love drama, but theatre has only a passing use for us now. He does not have a Supreme Military Council of Generals to throw people into jail. He has a National Assembly to deal with and there are still lingering problems with that august body. The President needs help in clearing the debris and banana peels ahead.
Should monies only be recovered and the looters be left unpunished?
I was with the Oputa Panel and I have also studied some part of the justice system as it concerns issues of human rights, reconciliation and justice. We can put all the people we want in jails but what will that do? We can even kill them, but then, what next? The African mind is not so much tuned to punitive justice but we tend to focus more on integrative and restorative justice. The theft has denied us development. So, Buhari can and should learn from ex-President Obasanjo who got back so much of the loots after he came in without any noise. I recall him saying that even pastors helped to bring back loots from repentant parishioners. I believe the President, using the intelligence resources available, should consider surprise as the most vital tool in this fight. My worry has not been about not probing as some of my critics falsely think. I have been saying ‘think, plan and execute.’ If you make so much noise, vital evidence, data and files will be destroyed by collaborators in the civil service or the relevant offices. The President has not named his team in this battle yet and he needs to court whistleblowers and wean them from the looters who may still have control over them. We must all know that loyalties have not changed yet.
- This is an abridged version of a chat Father Mathew Kukah had with Punch recently.
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